While we’re talking about Near Southside streetcar alignments, I thought I’d also bring you all the preliminary design renderings for Magnolia’s “Complete Street” makeover proposal, which would re-stripe the street from four lanes to two with a center turn lane, to slow traffic and increase safety, and add dedicated bike lanes. Again, these are preliminary, so details might change. Click for a bigger view:
I know there is a lot of interest in the Magnolia re-striping proposal, so I thought a quick update would be helpful.
The re-striping is still in the proposal phase, and although there was strong support at the August 27 meeting, we’re still working on some issues so that we end up with the best project possible.
Since the meeting we’ve been working with UPS to come up with solutions that address valid concerns about delivery trucks idling in the travel lanes and bike lanes. We have identified 3 additional areas along Magnolia where existing recessed parking areas (probably the rough equivalent of 3 spaces in length) might be reserved, probably just between 11 am and 2 pm, for deliveries. In addition, we’re going to continue to work with The T to see if any modifications to bus stop locations would be warranted as well.
Following those discussions we’ll be sending out additional information and will probably conduct a second community meeting. We will keep everyone posted.
Mike Brennan
Fort Worth South, Inc.
mike@fortworthsouth.org
817-923-4113
Would this plan mess up any plan to run a modern streetcar down the road?
Tacoma,
Some have asked that question. In my opinion, it does not. There will be buses on the re-striped Magnolia - the streetcar shouldn’t be any different as far as I’m concerned. Streetcars operate on narrow streets around bike lanes in other cities.
Bus stop locations (and any possible future streetcar stops) would also have to use current on-street parking areas in order to pull out of the traffic flow while stopped. Add the delivery stops and you significantly reduce on-street parking available to people wanting to visit Magnolia Ave businesses.
Also, designated left-turn lanes at signalized intersections encourage traffic flow on residential streets that may currently be bypassed by non-residents in favor of north-south travel on 8th Avenue and Hemphill. I’m looking in particular at College Ave though I expect that similar turn lanes may be included at Henderson (which isn’t considered an artery south of Magnolia) and 5th Ave, neither of which is included in the slides you’ve selected to display.
Jonathan,
With very rare exceptions, buses do *not* stop in the on-street parking. They stop in the traffic lane. Streetcars would operate the same way. No on-street parking is lost to buses or streetcars. On Magnolia, I don’t think I’ve *ever* seen a bus pull into a parking space.
They wouldn’t change this behavior just because of the fewer traffic lanes. There is no reason why transit should be affected much at all by this configuration.
Streetcars would absolutely not pull into street parking spaces on Magnolia. I have never seen a system configured that way.
A few parking spaces lost to daytime delivery spots seems to me to be a fairly insignificant loss compared to the benefits of a safer, slower Magnolia.
I would be very surprised if there was any significant increase in neighborhood street traffic as a result of the left-turn lanes. The only “arterial” streets heading south off Magnolia in the proposed area of the re-striping are 8th Avenue and Hemphill. There are not “destinations” on the streets south of Magnolia between those two streets, so I can’t imagine there would be any significant traffic increases on any neighborhood streets because of this. Whatever negligible handful of additional cars might turn onto neighborhood streets seems insignificant compared with the greater safety of the two+turn lane configuration, slower traffic, and better accommodation of cycling.
I guess my concern also involved the biking crowd. I think you recently had an article showing the problems with vehicles stopped in the bike lanes. Wouldn’t this add to the problem?
Anything is possible - you can’t say the lanes would absolutely never get blocked by a parked car. Thing is, Magnolia has on-street parking - parked cars would be out of the bike lane every time. I would imagine the only time they would be blocked would be by a car illegally stopped or standing outside of the parking spaces, which would not be too often.
I feel that the streetcar route running down Magnolia is of greater importance than the complete street redesign. This being the case, I am opposed to the redesign if it would affect the streetcar route decision. Although I certainly don’t understand the specifics of bus/streetcar operations, it just seems like if you have one lane of traffic that must be shared by the bus/streetcar and auto traffic, there is going to be long lines of autos behind the bus/streetcar, as the auto traffic will only be able to proceed as fast as the bus/streetcar. And as ridership increases, the more problematic this would become. This scenario could push the streetcar route up to Rosedale, which in my mind could affect the success of the streetcar program in the area in question.
The flipside to that is that it could be argued that it would be safer to have a few cars lined behind a stopped bus or streetcar than to have cars slaloming around a stopped bus or streetcar without slowing on the current four-lane Magnolia because they were slightly delayed.
@ ross
one lane for all the traffic isn’t going to work if they add a street car. it will be way too slow for any cars to use this street. if they don’t want cars on their street they should just get rid of them altogether.
I’m not sure why a streetcar passing by every 15 minutes spells doom for traffic flow. They won’t even stop at most stops unless people are waiting or a rider requests a stop.
Buses would still run down a bike lane/two traffic lane/turn lane Magnolia. I’m not sure why switching to a railed form of transit would create disaster when nobody seems to be objecting to having buses run on the narrowed street.
It’s not about wanting no cars on Magnolia. It’s about creating streets that serve transit, pedestrians, and cyclists as well as cars. It’s not a case of two extremes - either cars ruling above all or no cars at all. There is a happy medium. It has to be accepted that the happiness of cars is no longer the sole determining characteristic of our streets.
Given that similar street redesigns carry about the same amount of traffic, and given that even after restriping the T’s buses will still likely run along Magnolia, I can’t picture that replacing said buses with streetcars would make a real appreciable difference.
If there is only one traffic lane for a possible street car to stop in, they’d probably opt to run the streetcar down Rosedale instead, where it won’t block traffic when stopped.
You don’t think having to stop to wait for a bus is a problem, but it will become one when it generates complaints from motorists. That would also lead to resistance to any streetcar.
In my view (and I don’t think I’m alone if we’re talking about neighborhood advocates) one does not affect the other - than even after re-striping running the streetcar down Magnolia is still in the cards.
Buses would still run on Magnolia after re-striping. IMHO there is no appreciable reason why it would be OK to run buses but not OK to run streetcars. Streetcars are longer than buses but otherwise behave pretty much exactly the same way in terms of operational activities.
Motorists will complain even if there’s a streetcar on a four-lane Magnolia. Motorists complain about buses as-is. Motorists complain about bicycles. Motorists complain about pedestrians. Motorists complain about anything that might impede them from driving 45+ down Magnolia (despite the speed limit). Motorists complain if they have to slow down too much to make a turn. Motorists complain about having to walk more than three feet from their parking space to their destination.
Placing the happiness of motorists above all else is what led to a lot of the planning issues we struggle with today. To be blunt, I have little sympathy for this viewpoint. Motorists should be accommodated but their happiness should not be the make-or-break factor in every street design decision. That is the *entire point* of Fort Worthology’s whole existence.
Magnolia is not a high-speed arterial which places car happiness above all else. It is designated a “Main Street Collector” in the Near Southside Development Standards, a neighborhood-oriented street which is defined in the Near Southside Development Standards as a “walkable, mixed-use street of moderate to high density” which should be “comfortable and safe for bicyclists” and are meant to be 2-3 lanes. Rosedale is the primary commercial arterial in that area. Cars should take a lower priority on Magnolia and similar “main streets” than they would on an arterial like Rosedale. Magnolia should not be about appeasing motorists alone. It’s a neighborhood street and we should strive to make it accommodating of all users - pedestrians, bikes, transit riders, as well as cars - rather than just make sure cars are happy on it.
Does anyone else think that having the streetcar run on Rosedale might be a better idea to serve as a catalyst for development along that corridor?
Magnolia seems to be growing fine on its own - and it’s only a 2-minute walk from Rosedale as it is.
And not to derail the topic, but here’s another question of pedestrians vs. motorists…
Are motorists actually allowed to drive down the Oleander Walk (between Rosedale and Magnolia)? I thought this single lane road was for pedestrians (and cyclists?) only.
I was almost hit by a car barreling down the ally the other day.
Wherever the streetcar runs, I support re-striping Magnolia. I do not think the re-striping precludes the streetcar from running on Magnolia, however.
(The re-striping of Magnolia is, after all, the point of this thread. :) )
I suppose a lot of my touchiness is that even if we remove the streetcar from the equation on this particular issue, people have still spoken out against re-striping Magnolia because of inconveniences to cars, just from the re-striping itself. My point is that worrying about motorist happiness first and foremost is pretty much the antithesis of everything that’s trying to be accomplished in the Near Southside.
Let’s ignore the streetcar for the purposes of this topic. Magnolia or Rosedale, I don’t care. I prefer Magnolia no matter what but would not hate it on Rosedale. Beyond the streetcar, though, Magnolia ought to be re-striped.
JP,
Oleander is not exclusively pedestrian and bike-only. Cars are still allowed on it for access reasons to garages in new townhomes and such.
Personally, I think Oleander ought to have been car-free. I suppose that’s another topic of discussion. I understand the reasons why it wasn’t made so but I don’t especially like it.
Personally, I’ve had a few run-ins with crazy drivers on Oleander. I have noticed that there are a certain group of drivers who think Oleander is a drag strip. I think it would be worthwhile for Fort Worth South and/or the city to look at some additional traffic calming measures - perhaps some rough speed bumps at each intersection to discourage car traffic that’s not absolutely necessary to get into, say, the garages at Texana Townhomes or something. Heck, one could even imagine a design in which the midpoint of each block on Oleander between intersections had barriers preventing through traffic of automobiles, but which would still allow residents to enter partway to get to their garages.
Looks like Kevin and I are flip-flopped on this issue. I care about the re-striping only to the extent that it affects the likelihood of the streetcar down Magnolia. So forgive me if I don’t ignore the streetcar issue. Seems like part of good urban planning would be to look at all the possible uses for the roadway in a comprehensive way, don’t you think? I don’t think that anybody was arguing that the re-striping would necessarily preclude the streetcar route, only that it lessens the chances given that there is a wide-open alternative in Rosedale just a few blocks away. I imagine the amount of time one spends on a bike greatly affects one’s opinion on this issue. ;)
And I’m not really concerned about the development along Rosedale. To my mind, one mistake the Near Southside has made is spreading its resources too thin and not concentrating on development along Magnolia. Think about it, when has anything actually been “developed” on the Magnolia? Lots of talk, but no action. Still waiting for the 82-story condo tower at Henderson/Magnolia and the mixed use development at Fairmount/Magnolia. But hey, we’re getting a motor-bank.
One of the problems I saw with the restriping (even though I generally like the idea) is that I see a problem with traffic when buses/streetcars stop. It seems like a lot of people will slalom around the bus/streetcar, into the center turn lane, which could lead to problems.
Although people shouldn’t do this, they will. With the damage cars can cause, I can see an issue.
But I still think you create a problem with the bike lanes. I know the bus/streetcar will only come by every fifteen minutes or so, but when it does, bikers have to go somewhere. And, when traffic stops in the bike lanes, which it will, the bikes have to go somewhere. I know this happens in other cities, but I always thought it was a bad thing, not something we want to create.